A question about Ironsworn moves....
I'm still reading through this book. It's really interesting and I can't wait to play. I've been mulling over possible play situations in my head while driving, etc. and I want to clear up some of my confusion before I get around to playing.
But before posting the question, I just want to say this is a beautifully produced document. The black and white photos are great, the writing is clear and tight, it's well-organized with lots of white space, etc. So, good job to the creator.
Now, the issue I'm having is trying to better understand the difference between Face Danger and Secure an Advantage. The big thing seems to be FD is reactive, while SaA is proactive. I'm thinking of situations where you want to take away an advantage of the opponent. Which move is that? Examples: if an opponent has grabbed me and is holding me down, that's clearly reactive and I would roll FD. If an opponent doesn't see me, and I sneak up on him, that's clearly proactive and I would roll SaA.
What about a situation where you are under attack, but still have some degree of agency? Maybe there is a fairly obvious way to neutralize the enemy's main attack. Say, you're under fire and you flip a table sideways and dive behind it. Or maybe there are some howling bat-winged monsters swooping down at you from the sky, and you want to run to a grove of trees so they have to fight you on foot instead of from the air.
In both cases, the expected narrative is that you are still going to fight, you're just not letting the enemy dictate the circumstances. Also in both cases, it seems clear that you are both facing danger and securing an advantage. Or, reversing the semantics, you are trying to avoid danger and deny the opponent an advantage.
Anyway, to boil it down to a specific question, what move do you choose when you are not just trying to avoid a specific attack, but are also trying to prevent that whole means of attack. Maybe you do both moves? Otherwise, which one?
The reason it's relevant is because Secure an Advantage is strictly better in the mechanical (munchkin) sense because the reward for success is higher.
Hey, Ken Hubbard. Thanks for giving Ironsworn a look! You may want to post your questions over in the Ironsworn community, but I'm happy to give you my thoughts here.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, within combat, there's a fairly clear divide between Secure an Advantage and Face Danger. If you don't have initiative, you can't Secure an Advantage. This reflects that Secure an Advantage is used when you have control of the situation, and you are using that control to reinforce your position or gain new advantages.
Face Danger can be used against a foe when you don't have initiative. This reflects your character doing what they can to avoid the attacks instead of fighting back. Mechanically, the advantage of this approach (instead of making the Clash move) is that it's lower risk, and it gives you more flexibility over which stat to use. The disadvantage is that you can't inflict harm on your foe.
You might also use Face Danger when you have initiative in combat. This really depends on what is happening and how you are framing your character's actions. Let's say, for example, I am charging a foe on my horse. Sounds like a good opportunity to Secure an Advantage to reflect that positional advantage. But, what if I've previously established that there's a rock wall between me and my foe? That sounds like an obstacle, and I'd need to Face Danger to jump it (perhaps before or after I Secure an Advantage).
Your example of flipping a table to avoid arrow fire is spot on. If I had initiative, it'd be a great way to Secure an Advantage. If I don't have initiative, I'd make that a Face Danger move. Keep in mind that Face Danger does give you momentum on a strong hit (which supports the detail you've brought into the scene). Also, assuming you scored a hit, you can now leverage that table in the fiction. Are you ducking down behind it? The archers can't shoot at you anymore, so they'll need to shift tactics. You've essentially nullified that attack.
Remember, every move has an outcome that you apply to the fiction, even beyond the mechanical results. If you've gained reasonable fictional advantage through any move, then make that a part of your fictional framing moving forward.
If you had initiative, and Secured an Advantage by flipping up that table, the ficitonal result would be much the same, with a slightly better mechanical outcome (assuming a hit on either). However, how you envision the scene and your action would probably be a bit different.
Face Danger:
"The archers shoot. Arrows are flying. What do you do?"
Secure an Advantage:
"The archers are scrambling for position. They'll get a bead on you in a few moments. What do you do?"
The scene leading up to Face Danger is higher intensity, higher risk, with the danger more imminent. For Secure an Advantage, we're showing that you have the time to set up a defense. Then, if you scored a miss, I'd probably apply harm right away with Face Danger, but just knock some momentum or apply some fictional complication to the scene for Secure an Advantage.
Outside of combat, Face Danger is used to overcome obstacles and react to threats. It's a great move to use when you encounter a complication through the outcome of some other move, and need to force your character to react to a new or increased danger.
That was a lot of text. Apologies. I hope it is helpful.
Shawn Tomkin
ReplyDeleteHey Shawn, thanks for that detailed answer. Very helpful. I think my main confusion stemmed from under-estimating the importance of initiative.
Also, it didn't occur to me to look for an #Ironsworn community. I'll check in over there at some point.
Even though Shawn Tomkin has given a fantastic answer, I just wanted to add that in my experience, I solved many questions I had by playing. I too wanted to fully grasp the game before giving it a go, but there are things that flow organically as your character moves through the story, and that give you lots of “AHA!” moments, which would’ve been tricky to get otherwise.
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