Tuesday, December 19, 2017
How do you determine difficulties for things that you'd roll against? In typical GM-led RPGs, players often don't know a-priori whether they have any chance of succeeding at a feat of strength or charming an NPC, not to mention whether they are any match for the monsters they are suddenly facing. Most solo systems do well with setting the stage, but the hand-off to the standard game mechanics that determine whether a PC succeeds at something doesn't include a method for setting difficulty in my experience. Yeah, I can ask the oracle if what my character is trying to do is hard or easy, but that feels clunky. Thoughts?
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It seems that in real life, people usually have a decent idea of what they are getting into. There are misjudgments, but that can be abstracted as poor dice rolls. But a person is determing the difficulty of the task before doing it. Or the difficulty encountered in the task all the while he or she is doing it.
ReplyDeleteI think knowing the difficulty probably is more realistic.
I am fond of Fate...which is a game that advocates putting everything on the table for all players to see and not worrying about such trivialities. There’s a clear separation of player versus character knowledge, and players know this going into the play experience.
ReplyDeleteThis has shaped how I play solo games too. It doesn’t spoil my fun to know what my TN will be for the important upcoming roll. YMMV.
You can also take a look at my Perilous Intersections driver. It has a mechanism for ramping up or down the difficulties based on your progress in the story. It might be worth a look.
noonetoplay.blogspot.com - Perilous Intersections, v. 1.0
Most games have a rough guideline for what the difficulties should be. Just as you might decide the odds of something is "likely" or "almost impossible," it's reasonable that you would determine something similar to determine the difficulty of trying something.
ReplyDeleteI take the average difficulty to mean what an everyday individual could do. For 5e, for example, if something is DC 10, the average person has a 50-ish% chance of doing it. The reason a character has an easier time of it are the proficiency and attribute bonus. Would it be harder for an average person? Maybe it's DC15, but the hero's bonus will knock it down lower.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that I have to keep reminding myself that I'm the player(s) and Mythic is the GM. Things like this I handle just like I was a player at a table with a human GM -- I'd ask the GM. Now, with Mythic, it works better if I ask a leading question. Something like, "These are likely average orcs, right?"
ReplyDeleteI've thrown this out before but I like to think of Mythic as the world's shyest GM. As an experienced, knowledgeable player, I have to interpret and draw out the GM's answers but I'm still just a player. So for this stuff, I still ask my GM.
"players often don't know a-priori whether they have any chance of succeeding at a feat of strength or charming an NPC, not to mention whether they are any match for the monsters they are suddenly facing."
ReplyDeleteI'd like to argue that in a group game, a good GM is using sufficient world building, description, and sensory snippets to give PCs a good idea of what they are up against. If you, as the PC, never have any clue about likely difficulty it's time to have an out of game conversation with the GM so they are aware they aren't convey the world sufficiently.
We know how to gauge difficulty in real life because we can use our own senses and past experience. Fortunately when playing solo, the gap between conveying sensory snippets the PC is picking up to its controlling player is eliminated. Same goes for the PC past experience. You, as the solo player, already know all the details you would need to make an informed decision, just like in RL (and if you don't have details you can use random tables, prompts, and oracles to fill them in).
"Most solo systems do well with setting the stage, but the hand-off to the standard game mechanics that determine whether a PC succeeds at something doesn't include a method for setting difficulty in my experience."
ReplyDeleteThat might be an issue with using a "solo system" instead of just using solo play methodology and techniques with system that support group play.
The vast majority of RPG systems do actually have guidance for setting difficulty levels.
Since I do mostly roll under games like Runequest, I just roll against base skill with no modifier.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I personally like systems like Trollbabe or Apocalypse World which do not have stats for NPCs.
ReplyDeleteStill, I think that your dilemma can be solved as well with the suggestions you've gotten so far. In my experience, real, live GMs usually tell you what difficulty number you need to beat anyway, so it's a matter of coming up with a system that tells you what the difficulty number is.
For example, taking into consideration the context, you could assign odds to various difficulties, and ask the oracle about each of them in order.
I usually just pick whatever seems right for the challenge, based on the examples in the rulebook -- the same way as I would in a social game. I am somewhat prone to finding reasons to increase the difficulty, especially for my more highly-skilled PCs, because I think it's boring if they start to succeed too often.
ReplyDeleteIf I have absolutely no idea how difficult an action should be, I'll pick a random difficulty, roll one up, or ask the Oracle a leading question or two.
Been thinking about this. Particularly this part:
ReplyDelete"In typical GM-led RPGs, players often don't know a-priori whether they have any chance of succeeding at a feat of strength or charming an NPC, not to mention whether they are any match for the monsters they are suddenly facing."
I think the answer is "neither does the solo player." For example, if I'm playing a game and decide "my character is going to try and Fast Talk the NPC to find out what's going on," then that's what he's trying to do.
I work out the difficulty of the attempt LATER. Sometimes it works out well for him, and sometimes it bites the PC in the ass. In fact, most of the time, the PC gets outplayed socially.
So, determine intent first, then calculate difficulty.
In Numenera, normal humans have a level difficulty of 1 to 6, so roll 1d6 for a given unknown NPC. A true monster might be defined using either 1d10 (or 1d4+6 if you're really trying to give yourself a challenge).
ReplyDeleteHonestly, random numbers solve most questions. When in doubt, use a random number calculator, since they allow you to roll any range you can think of.
I hate setting difficulties in solo games therefeore in Bivius and Zathrum there are rules to randomly set the difficulties of the threat
ReplyDeleteThanks for the replies, everyone. To clarify, I'm perfectly comfortable translating a verbal description of difficulty into a mechanical one (e.g. "moderately hard" means DC 14). And I agree that in many cases the PC would have some idea of difficulty (that safe is probably going to be harder to pick than a flimsy padlock), but that's not always the case (is the NPC you're haggling with a pushover or totally inflexible). Todd Rokely, that's one way to do handle this, but then you still have to assign a difficulty and try not to be biased by the fact that you decided to take the risk. lino pang I'll have to reread your stuff, but I guess where I'm landing after this would be:
ReplyDelete1. assign a base difficulty based on what the PC can reasonably ascertain
2. decide whether to try it
3. if yes, then roll a modifier that sets the true difficulty.
For the last step I'd want something where 0 is most likely but fairly high or low values are possible. For example, 3d6 translated to mods in the range of [-3,3] as DCC does for ability mods. That way the gut check guess is usually right but sometimes way off. (The math nerd in me would be tempted to also twiddle the width of the distribution based on how uncertain the initial assumption is, but that's probably too much even for me.)
Of course, the above might feel like too much work for the sake of a little gain in versimilitude, which was the response I was actually anticipating. 😋
Anyway, thanks for playing along!
Out of curiosity, what game are you playing? Because some games are just "beat your skill" to do something, some have deliberate and set difficulties, and some are subjective.
ReplyDeleteThe easiest solution, if this is an issue, MIGHT be to just use a "set difficulty" system, so you don't need to worry about it.
Even if its a target number system, the rules will usually suggest a "typical" difficulty for an average task.
ReplyDeleteFor a D&D 5e example.
ReplyDeleteDifficultly setting: roll 2d20 (+/- modifier)
Attempt: roll 1d20 (+/- modifier)
If the attempt roll is higher than both difficultly rolls, the hero succeeds. Lower than both, fails. Higher than 1, lower than 1, partially succeed (half damage from trap, NPC will help but wants something in return, etc...)
Here's a game you might like to check out, as difficulty is entirely description based: rpgnow.com - The Description System
ReplyDeleteI seem to be miscommunicating somehow. Set difficulties translate from a description to a number. That part I'm fine with. I was asking about how you determine whether something is easy/moderate/challenging (and any other gradations), regardless of how you describe/quantify it. I guess I didn't say this, but in the groups I've played with in the past, the GM usually didn't disclose the exact difficulty of a challenge and just left it for the players to guess at based on descriptions. I like that sense of mystery and surprise as a player. Is that monster as bad as it looks? Or that old lady way more dangerous than you'd think? You don't know until you try and find yourself getting whomped (or not). If I just want to say to myself as GM, looks kinda hard, DC 14, done, that works but it's less satisfying to me as a player.
ReplyDeleteTodd Rokely No specific system. I generally prefer OSR-ish games, but thought this question had broader relevance.
Did the GM not tell you what number you needed to beat? I know some GMs play that way.
ReplyDeleteGajus Miknaitis well, it's so subjective its hard to give a quick answer. Sometimes it's based on the NPC--maybe the UNE determines the NPC is stronger or weaker than the PC. Maybe I roll on the random encounter table--those creatures in D&D are set, regardless of the PC's level. Maybe I pull from the list of sample NPCs from the GMs chapter--a "gang member" is a gang member, no matter what.
ReplyDeleteOften, by the time conflict erupts, the difficulty is already established. I know there's 10 gang members in the bar--there's no judgement to be made (though I, as the player, might know this is very, very bad for the PC).
With physical challenges, it's the same thing. The DC to climb a wall is set based on wall type.
If you don't know and the answer doesn't seem obvious to you (based on system or the like), then you can turn to the oracle--ask either a complex question or a simple yes/no question.
Push comes to shove, ask the group here to serve as your Oracle. It's a pretty fun way to get some chaos into your game ;)
Rather than set numbers, difficulties could translate from a description to a range, e.g. Easy =2d6+3 Moderate =2d8+4, etc. You could have the number ranges in each category overlap, so you never know if it's really Easy (according to the example DCs) until you try it.
ReplyDeleteAlex Yari Exactly. To give a mundane but roughly analogous real world example: your boss asks you to do a task and wants a time estimate. Based on what you know, you guess 6 hours. If it's something you have experience doing, you're probably about right most of the time, but sometimes things turn out to be a lot easier or (more often in my experience) take a lot longer than you'd first thought. Gerard Nerval I like this suggestion. I'd want to have the PC make the check first, then roll for the actual difficulty and find out what's really going on.
ReplyDeleteapologies to all but I am unable to read all these comments now (really busy time)
ReplyDeleteGajus Miknaitis
"1. assign a base difficulty based on what the PC can reasonably ascertain
2. decide whether to try it
3. if yes, then roll a modifier that sets the true difficulty."
"That way the gut check guess is usually right but sometimes way off."
My approach is quite different but
what you said sounds perfectly reasonable and doable to me.