The beauty of Ghost/echo is its utter crunchlessness.
The beauty of Ghost/echo is its utter crunchlessness. Its liquid. Intuitively hackable. Plug and play. As deep or complex as you like it. Suddenly I'm thinking all of my books are useful. I'm excited at the possibilities.
Think of it like an action movie. Pick an opening scene, perhaps several vantage points. A soundtrack might help. Design a cast. Main and supporting. Allow the mood to carry the action.
Improvise mechanics. Ask broad questions.
So if you want to do fantasy... Let's go with standard d&d melodrama. You could start in your favorite tavern. Come up with names for bartenders, bouncers, entertainers, and patrons. Some drinks. Write names for spells it would be fun to have or scary to see used against you. Some fun treasures.
I've been thinking about tags and keys, like from Lady Blackbird. Tags would be like fate aspects or DW traits. Weapons have traits like forceful or slashing. Places have tags like Noisy and Crowded. Characters have tags like Barbaric (a bonus in combat, a penalty in the court) and Robot (which has a complex list of abilities and disabilities).
If Alytha, amazon warrior, has a drink called Tangerine Wildfire roll a d4 to see how drunk she is. If she has another, add the score. At five, she slurs. At seven she hits on anyone who talks to her. At ten she passes out.
Or if she goes out in the night and is surrounded by six ruffians. How hard is it to defeat them? Improvise a mechanic. How many can she take out in the first few seconds? Roll d6 Are they afraid now?
No but if someone makes one, be sure to include some paragraphs explaining how to set it up. I wasn't nearly as psyched to play ghost echo as mad libs my own game.
Downloaded. I've been thinking I want to do a Drow horror game. Maybe something in the caves needs more vigilance and grit than any one elf. Cooperation is needed and soon.
I use FU on a d10 scale, for mechanics and MISO if I need story. I use john yorio 's simple dungeon builder, or DunGen app if I am lying in bed. I start my DungMan with one cliche and use it to add a die. If he dies, he sired a son.
I am on the third generation- Dungmansson. And he is doing quite well, rolling on his dungeoness on a five.
Its so fluid I play it on my iPad with wife and child asleep next to me!
Ovy Ortega I had an iPad but my kids stole it! Ha.
Totally agree on Ghost/Echo. I went to Lady Blackbird because I love Traits/Tags character generation, then did a mash-up of Apocalypse World (kinda like G/E but heavier) and LB, and now I'm eyeing Lasers & Feelings. It's fun playing with the "feel" of the game using the mechanics. And pretty interesting how different Ghost/Echo feels from, say, Lady Blackbird in play.
I have this menzoberranzan supplement from 4ed and with veins of the earth I hope to make a fine underdark crawl. I think Drow aren't so much evil as ruthlessly pragmatic. They are hierarchal and militaristic and don't coddle freeloaders. A sort of feminine echo of fascism. If they failed to be harsh and vigilant, they might get slaughtered by illithids or beholders or balhannoths or any number of horrors. They had to become the greater horror. But elves are basically human. They can breed with man. And man can breed with orc. So elf and orc are ethnicities. I would have them age and die at a human rate but elves stay beautiful longest and orcs tend to stay strong till their final day. Humans are sort of a crapshoot after their sixties. I think I'll post about elves and drow on my page. Along with drawings. If you're into that.
I guess I just don't get the appeal of "crunchless systems." If everything is "improvise a system"--then why use a "system" if I'm just going to be improvising everything? Why not just use the Oracle or a purely improvised and /or homebrew the mechanics?
I get it, Todd Rokely. These kind of fringe/experimental system bobs aren't for everyone. However, I don't at all consider Ghost/Echo an improvised system. It is, essentially, an oracle. Or, I should say, requires no more improvisation than your standard Apocalypse World game (success, partial success, failure).
It boils down to:
You want to do a thing. Choose a goal. Choose a calamity.
Roll dice, indicating success, partial, or failure. Assign results to goal and calamity. Interpret and push the fiction.
Most systems out there resolve the same questions, perhaps by varying levels of difference. However, it does resolve the essential questions of resolution with a does of ("...and this happens too!"). So if this sounds like a waste of time, of course use a different system.
I like the minimal packackaging that still allows resolution to my satisfaction. I prefer it over AW games, because I might be mentally taxed over coming up with calamities and consequences. This system makes me stop and consider them before reaching for the dice.
Picking the appropriate oracle or improvising a mechanic is uncrunchy. Deciding these dangers are mooks and can be easily defeated to make the heroes look good is crunchless. I guess I see this flimsy framework as encouraging rulings not rules
For me, the fun is in interesting choices. Assigning results to the chosen binary outcomes is like moving sliders into position. Rather than two results, they can be quite nuanced, which is interesting for new directions in the story.
Todd Rokely I like dungeon crawls, too. For me, it's all about the feeling of "falling forward" as momentum builds, and I find straight crawls are flatter.
Ovy Ortega I could, kinda between projects right now, but I'm not sure what exactly it would be. One you can use to design your own flavor? Or one that's a more generic version? Or more like a "structure" to hang a story gm'd by Ghost/Echo on?
If it's the last, I have a few of those up on my blog, like 6 Days. Basically variations on standard plot structures boiled down to a series of questions with a simple mechanic that can be disregarded or adapted.
That's it. We are genre savvy enough to be familiar with lots of rules, if and when they serve our interests. The trick is converting our imaginations into narrative as smoothly as possible. DM Notes organized and actionable.
The mechanics didn't make sense. The layout did. I've been searching for years for the right system of mechanics to support my style of play. GE was an epiphany. I already know a lot of mechanics. Why should I confine myself to those favored by a game designer? I would like to understand the mechanics for GE, I don't mean to stubbornly retain ignorance, but I don't need them to appreciate the minimalist structure.
Chad Robb First of all, congrats on being inspired to make your own game!
The only thing that might be an issue is misrepresenting another's work. So statements like "The beauty of Ghost/echo is its utter crunchlessness." is a false representation of the game John Harper made and not fair to him or any players who might not look into Ghost/echo because of that statement.
At this point your game is more "inspired by" than a "re-skin"; embrace that it is its own thing now.
I accept this. I am not sure I have made something coherent enough to call a game yet. But it is less a reskin than a novel if unsteady approach loosely inspired by GE, a product of imperfectly understanding the rules and finding something playable anyway.
Do we have a fantasy hack? Dang that's a nice pic!
ReplyDeleteThink of it like an action movie.
ReplyDeletePick an opening scene, perhaps several vantage points. A soundtrack might help.
Design a cast. Main and supporting.
Allow the mood to carry the action.
Improvise mechanics. Ask broad questions.
So if you want to do fantasy...
Let's go with standard d&d melodrama.
You could start in your favorite tavern.
Come up with names for bartenders, bouncers, entertainers, and patrons. Some drinks.
Write names for spells it would be fun to have or scary to see used against you. Some fun treasures.
I've been thinking about tags and keys, like from Lady Blackbird.
Tags would be like fate aspects or DW traits. Weapons have traits like forceful or slashing. Places have tags like Noisy and Crowded.
Characters have tags like Barbaric (a bonus in combat, a penalty in the court) and Robot (which has a complex list of abilities and disabilities).
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/drhg-ZmOvxG3qXhvAfhugK3GTWm_MvNqmdcLLVcp2SPJQcnYMa2Hb7KvRekDJjdWz11RYohcsQ
If Alytha, amazon warrior, has a drink called Tangerine Wildfire roll a d4 to see how drunk she is. If she has another, add the score. At five, she slurs. At seven she hits on anyone who talks to her. At ten she passes out.
ReplyDeleteOr if she goes out in the night and is surrounded by six ruffians.
How hard is it to defeat them?
Improvise a mechanic. How many can she take out in the first few seconds? Roll d6
Are they afraid now?
Ovy Ortega Insert your favorite fantasy tropes into the blank spaces ghost/echo provides; it's a madlib for your creativity.
ReplyDeleteDo we have a blank one?
ReplyDeleteNo but if someone makes one, be sure to include some paragraphs explaining how to set it up.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't nearly as psyched to play ghost echo as mad libs my own game.
Oh I got a psychotic libs system. I call it Tired daddy, but it is essentially FU and MiSo.
ReplyDeleteMiso?
ReplyDeletedieheart.net - Need Some Rules-Lite Solo RPG Framework for 2017? Here Is Miso RPG it's great for story forks.
ReplyDeleteDownloaded. I've been thinking I want to do a Drow horror game. Maybe something in the caves needs more vigilance and grit than any one elf. Cooperation is needed and soon.
ReplyDeleteMISO could easily slide into the ghost echo
ReplyDeleteWhat it needs is mechanical options. Freeform is good. Fluidity is supremely elegant.
ReplyDeleteI will show you tired daddy soon.
ReplyDeleteI use FU on a d10 scale, for mechanics and MISO if I need story. I use john yorio 's simple dungeon builder, or DunGen app if I am lying in bed. I start my DungMan with one cliche and use it to add a die. If he dies, he sired a son.
I am on the third generation- Dungmansson. And he is doing quite well, rolling on his dungeoness on a five.
Its so fluid I play it on my iPad with wife and child asleep next to me!
And Chad you need to tell me the story of that picture above- it is rocking bliss!
ReplyDeleteThe original is Dinoriders, a cartoon from the 80s. Short lived. But more deserving a reboot than the ninja turtles or smurfs.
ReplyDeletehttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/v9tAKI9Zxfa2tIEpk4QWRy5jl2Y3Ba5ga1HWMSEjAYz5qburArm3xB8MMKWuxOTu5ldZrV1sKA
I just found the baby one by accident.
ReplyDeleteWhat is this Dun Gen app? I love generating dungeons.
ReplyDeleteI'm using my real name if any of you are on Facebook. I think and read and talk about this stuff a lot.
ReplyDeleteOvy Ortega I had an iPad but my kids stole it! Ha.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree on Ghost/Echo. I went to Lady Blackbird because I love Traits/Tags character generation, then did a mash-up of Apocalypse World (kinda like G/E but heavier) and LB, and now I'm eyeing Lasers & Feelings. It's fun playing with the "feel" of the game using the mechanics. And pretty interesting how different Ghost/Echo feels from, say, Lady Blackbird in play.
DunGen is gone from iPhone like so many. But it is a progressive dungeon generator for D20 that I use when all I have is thumbs.
ReplyDeleteBut john yorio has a nice no frills analog one.
Sheesh! I helped create a monster.
ReplyDeleteI prefer PDF to app
ReplyDeleteBTW, I'd play the heck out of that stow horror game.
ReplyDeleteAs do I, but when there is lack of light, i get what i can. Best PDF there is is a pocketmod.
ReplyDeleteI have this menzoberranzan supplement from 4ed
ReplyDeleteand with veins of the earth I hope to make a fine underdark crawl.
I think Drow aren't so much evil as ruthlessly pragmatic. They are hierarchal and militaristic and don't coddle freeloaders. A sort of feminine echo of fascism.
If they failed to be harsh and vigilant, they might get slaughtered by illithids or beholders or balhannoths or any number of horrors.
They had to become the greater horror.
But elves are basically human. They can breed with man. And man can breed with orc. So elf and orc are ethnicities. I would have them age and die at a human rate but elves stay beautiful longest and orcs tend to stay strong till their final day. Humans are sort of a crapshoot after their sixties.
I think I'll post about elves and drow on my page. Along with drawings. If you're into that.
Chad Robb fascinating, oh do post.
ReplyDeleteBut I confess, printing it and reading, I could use a ghost echo tutorial.
This was my reskin.
ReplyDeleteMy next one will have monsters and magic effects and weird phenomena.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hBHRf5Wcp5Y2rDCzauPeyIm7a9bYvu980NVUSIySa9V3420Kxx_Jn7GPJXTcZ5aFGNZp9Ff85g
Please post!
ReplyDeleteI didn't run it like that at all.
ReplyDeleteTbh I stopped after the first page.
I guess I just don't get the appeal of "crunchless systems." If everything is "improvise a system"--then why use a "system" if I'm just going to be improvising everything? Why not just use the Oracle or a purely improvised and /or homebrew the mechanics?
ReplyDeleteI get it, Todd Rokely. These kind of fringe/experimental system bobs aren't for everyone. However, I don't at all consider Ghost/Echo an improvised system. It is, essentially, an oracle. Or, I should say, requires no more improvisation than your standard Apocalypse World game (success, partial success, failure).
ReplyDeleteIt boils down to:
You want to do a thing.
Choose a goal.
Choose a calamity.
Roll dice, indicating success, partial, or failure.
Assign results to goal and calamity.
Interpret and push the fiction.
Most systems out there resolve the same questions, perhaps by varying levels of difference. However, it does resolve the essential questions of resolution with a does of ("...and this happens too!"). So if this sounds like a waste of time, of course use a different system.
I like the minimal packackaging that still allows resolution to my satisfaction. I prefer it over AW games, because I might be mentally taxed over coming up with calamities and consequences. This system makes me stop and consider them before reaching for the dice.
Picking the appropriate oracle or improvising a mechanic is uncrunchy.
ReplyDeleteDeciding these dangers are mooks and can be easily defeated to make the heroes look good is crunchless.
I guess I see this flimsy framework as encouraging rulings not rules
For me, the fun is in interesting choices. Assigning results to the chosen binary outcomes is like moving sliders into position. Rather than two results, they can be quite nuanced, which is interesting for new directions in the story.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if anyone has or would construct a blank ghost echo template- it asked questions and you fill in the blank- then roll with it.
ReplyDeleteTodd Rokely I like dungeon crawls, too. For me, it's all about the feeling of "falling forward" as momentum builds, and I find straight crawls are flatter.
ReplyDeleteOvy Ortega I could, kinda between projects right now, but I'm not sure what exactly it would be. One you can use to design your own flavor? Or one that's a more generic version? Or more like a "structure" to hang a story gm'd by Ghost/Echo on?
If it's the last, I have a few of those up on my blog, like 6 Days. Basically variations on standard plot structures boiled down to a series of questions with a simple mechanic that can be disregarded or adapted.
actually real freeform doesn't need any rules, only improvisation and a randomizer
ReplyDeleteroryb bracebuckle I agree 100%
ReplyDeleteThat's it. We are genre savvy enough to be familiar with lots of rules, if and when they serve our interests.
ReplyDeleteThe trick is converting our imaginations into narrative as smoothly as possible.
DM Notes organized and actionable.
Chad Robb indeed NOTHING gets in the way of the story!
ReplyDeleteTodd Rokely It's already been stated, but just to reiterate, Ghost/echo actually has crunch and it's own resolution mechanics.
ReplyDeleteThose have been ignore in this instance to explore experimental game design; so an off-shoot or a hack rather than the game rules as written...
The mechanics didn't make sense. The layout did.
ReplyDeleteI've been searching for years for the right system of mechanics to support my style of play.
GE was an epiphany. I already know a lot of mechanics. Why should I confine myself to those favored by a game designer?
I would like to understand the mechanics for GE, I don't mean to stubbornly retain ignorance, but I don't need them to appreciate the minimalist structure.
Rereading these today
ReplyDeletehttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VbndJ2lfSO1-jTXM0LVKnM9TNbGltXYK32kdnlYz-G7fhZocjMW1GyuzsHmIRG1j6Ec3HtQxiw
Of course, Chad Robb. By all means! Use the mechanics that serve you best. Awesome stuff here what you are doing.
ReplyDeleteChad Robb First of all, congrats on being inspired to make your own game!
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that might be an issue is misrepresenting another's work. So statements like "The beauty of Ghost/echo is its utter crunchlessness." is a false representation of the game John Harper made and not fair to him or any players who might not look into Ghost/echo because of that statement.
At this point your game is more "inspired by" than a "re-skin"; embrace that it is its own thing now.
I accept this. I am not sure I have made something coherent enough to call a game yet. But it is less a reskin than a novel if unsteady approach loosely inspired by GE, a product of imperfectly understanding the rules and finding something playable anyway.
ReplyDelete